The Daily by The New York Times.
Episode: ‘The Interview’: George Saunders Says Ditching These Three Delusions Can Save You.
🎯 Core Theme & Purpose
This episode of The Interview from The New York Times features author and educator George Saunders. The discussion centers on his latest novel, “Vigil,” and explores themes of morality, responsibility, and the nature of good within the context of his fiction and his philosophical views. Listeners interested in literature, ethics, and the complexities of human behavior, particularly in the face of challenging circumstances, will find this conversation insightful.
📋 Detailed Content Breakdown
• Saunders’s Latest Novel, “Vigil”: The conversation delves into Saunders’s new novel, “Vigil,” which features a cantankerous oil tycoon on his deathbed and explores themes of mortality and the nature of choice. The novel presents two contrasting characters, K.J. Boone (a climate change denier) and Jill (a ghost representing a deceased woman), who embody different perspectives on accountability and karma. Saunders aims to present both viewpoints fairly rather than providing a definitive answer to the questions raised.
• The Craft vs. Kindness Dichotomy: The episode touches upon Saunders being honored as the “ultimate teacher of kindness and craft,” with the host questioning the potential disconnect between his satirical fiction and the public perception of him as a purveyor of kindness. Saunders acknowledges that while his craft is not the issue, his public persona can sometimes be misconstrued due to his earlier, viral commencement speech on kindness, which was later published as a book.
• Determinism, Free Will, and Judgment: A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the philosophical questions raised in “Vigil” concerning determinism, free will, and the extent to which individuals are responsible for their actions and life outcomes. Saunders expresses a belief that art doesn’t necessarily need to solve problems but rather to frame them correctly, allowing the reader to engage with these complex issues through the characters’ interactions.
• The Writer’s Perspective on Character and Morality: Saunders reflects on his writing process, noting that as he develops characters grappling with profound moral questions, he finds himself becoming less certain of the answers. He aims to present each character’s perspective authentically, acknowledging his own fallibility and that of his characters, resisting the urge to impose a singular moral framework.
• Personal Evolution and the Role of Literature: The conversation explores Saunders’s own intellectual and political evolution, from his early years as an “Ayn Rand Republican” to his current more empathetic outlook. He attributes this shift partly to reading literature and engaging with diverse perspectives, highlighting how literature can foster a greater understanding of others and oneself, even if it doesn’t offer simple solutions.
• The Nature of Salvation and Acceptance: Saunders suggests that “salvation,” in a literary sense, comes from acknowledging one’s own flawed nature and the unintended consequences of actions. He draws a parallel to his own experiences with meditation and writing, finding moments of clarity and self-awareness that help him navigate life’s complexities. He sees literature as a means to achieve this self-reflection and to foster a deeper connection with others.
💡 Key Insights & Memorable Moments
- Saunders’s nuanced view on art’s purpose: “A work of art doesn’t have to solve a problem; it just has to formulate it correctly.”
- The potential paradox of a satirist being seen as a teacher of kindness, and Saunders’s acknowledgment of how his public persona has evolved.
- Saunders’s personal journey from Ayn Rand advocacy to a more empathetic viewpoint, influenced by his engagement with literature.
- The idea that embracing one’s own imperfections and understanding the interconnectedness of actions is a form of “salvation.”
- Saunders’s observation that writing can provide a “sacred pause” in one’s life, allowing for a different, more reflective mode of being.
🎯 Actionable Takeaways
- Engage with literature mindfully: Actively consider the moral and ethical questions posed by authors, even those that challenge your own beliefs. Why it matters: Literature can be a powerful tool for self-reflection and understanding different perspectives.
- Acknowledge your own fallibility: Recognize that perfection is unattainable and embrace your flaws as part of the human experience. Why it matters: This self-awareness can lead to greater humility and empathy towards others.
- Seek moments of mindful reflection: Incorporate practices like meditation or dedicated writing time into your routine to gain clarity and perspective. Why it matters: These practices can help you step back from automatic reactions and foster more considered responses.
- Distinguish between kindness and niceness: Understand that true kindness may sometimes involve difficult truths or actions, rather than simply being pleasant. Why it matters: This distinction helps in fostering genuine connection and ethical behavior.
- Embrace ambiguity in moral questions: Accept that not all ethical dilemmas have easy answers and find value in the process of exploring them through art and dialogue. Why it matters: This approach fosters intellectual humility and encourages deeper engagement with complex issues.
👥 Guest Information
- George Saunders: Award-winning author and educator.
- Area of Expertise: Fiction writing, literary criticism, ethical philosophy, and teaching creative writing.
- Qualifications: MacArthur Genius Fellow, Booker Prize winner for his novel “Lincoln in the Bardo,” distinguished teacher at Syracuse University’s creative writing program since 1996. He also runs a popular Substack, “Story Club with George Saunders.”
- Key Contributions: Provided deep insights into his novel “Vigil,” his philosophical views on morality and responsibility, and the transformative power of literature.
- Mentioned Resources: His novel “Vigil,” his novel “Lincoln in the Bardo,” his Substack “Story Club with George Saunders,” and his book “Congratulations, By the Way.”